Steiner and Gobineau

Peter Staudenmaier (February 22nd, 2004):
"Moreover, the concept of an "Aryan race", in the form which it typically took within European culture in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, was inescapably racist. It posited a superior Aryan stock who colonized the ancient world and founded the great civilizations of antiquity."

Tarjei Straume (February 22nd, 2004):
Rudolf Steiner did not claim that the Aryans had founded *the great civilizations* of antiquity. There are many, many pre-historic civilizations. It was the Ariosophists and the Nazis who concocted the notion - or the myth (in the derogatory-illusory sense of the word) - that the Aryans had founded *all* ancient civilizations. It looks as if you are deliberately blending occult history based upon spiritual science with the German nationalist idea of a master race in order to stigmatize anthroposophy in this manner.

Peter Staudenmaier (February 22nd, 2004):
That is not what List or Lanz, the two leading ariosophists, taught, and I don't know of any Nazi race theorist who made this claim either. The notion that the Aryan race had founded many of the main ancient civilizations long predates both ariosophy and Nazism. I once again recommend you peek inside a book about the history of the Aryan myth. Poliakov would be a good place to start.

Tarjei Straume (February 22nd, 2004):
'To Gobineau, "History... shows us that all civilization flows from the white race, that none can exist without the co-operation of this race," and that to the *ordinary* white race, the Aryan race is what the white man is to the black.' [Pennick]

Peter Staudenmaier (February 22nd, 2004):
Uh, Tarjei? Do you know when Gobineau lived, and where? He wasn't an ariosophist, and he wasn't a Nazi. He died in 1882, when ariosophy was still a glimmer in Guido List's eye (and when Lanz von Liebenfels, who coined the term 'ariosophy', was ten years old), and half a century before the Nazis came to power.

Paulina (February 23rd, 2004):
Dear Mr. Staudenmaier,
I know when Gobineau lived and where, and also, that he had far more influence on German thought then ever did Steiner.
I find it of considerable interest your attempt to dismiss Gobineau's influence by playing a time line game of half a century.
If one is REALLY interested in historical accuracy on the "ideological links" to national socialism then one must needs go back even further than Gobineau's time of influence in the mid 1800s to the time period 1783-1815 and the influence of the Romantic political theorists in Europe, because it is most exactly these Romantic political theorists who prepared the mental and emotional soil in Germany for the unified state and religion that reigns supreme over the individual; the Tutonic individual, meaning the term 'individual' is a person of Tutonic blood and all others of inferior and corrupting blood line.
Gobineau is most exactly the man you keep trying to make out Steiner to be, but then targeting this French diplomat of aristocratic origin would not exactly work to advantage for the political agenda of a new world order of the kind to which you are committed, would it?
To say to Tarjei: "Gobineau, to choose your own example, had multiple ideological links to Nazism, yet was obviously not a Nazi ideologue." is just game playing. The term,"Nazi" may not have been coined by the mid 1800s, but, Gobineau is most certainly a nazi ideologue in every
sense of the word.
Perhaps you have not bothered reading his treatise, "Essai sur l'inegalite des races humaines"? (But I think you have.)

Paulina (February 23rd, 2004):
Hi Paulina, thanks for your post. You wrote:
"I know when Gobineau lived and where"
Good. Then maybe you can explain to me why Tarjei referred to Gobineau, of all people, when asked for an example of a Nazi or an ariosophist.
[Note: Tarjei was not asked for an example of a Nazi or an ariosophist.]
"that he had far more influence on German thought then ever did Steiner."
That's probably true.
"I find it of considerable interest your attempt to dismiss
Gobineau's influence by playing a time line game of half a century."
I did nothing of the sort. I think you misunderstood that part of the exchange between me and Tarjei. It began when Tarjei opined that it was the ariosophists and the Nazis who invented the notion that the Aryans founded all the civilizations of antiquity. I replied that this is not, in fact, what the ariosophists taught, and that I don't know of any Nazis who held this position either. Tarjei then responded with the quote about Gobineau. Since Gobineau was obviously neither a Nazi nor an ariosophist, Tarjei's comment seemed to me quite beside the point. To my mind, this has nothing whatsoever to do with dismissing Gobineau's influence.
"Gobineau is most exactly the man you keep trying to make out Steiner to be"
No, not at all. Gobineau's racial theory was pessimist, not progressivist.
[Which doesn't actually address the accusation]
"but then targeting this French diplomat of aristocratic origin would not exactly work
to advantage for the political agenda of a new world order of the kind to which you are committed, would it?"
Beats me. What new world order is it that you think I am committed to?
"To say to Tarjei: "Gobineau, to choose your own example, had multiple ideological links to Nazism, yet was obviously not a Nazi ideologue." is just game playing."
Uh, no, it's an entirely accurate observation. Do you disagree?
[Technically accurate in only the narrowest sense. It depends on how you define "Nazi idealogue". If a "Nazi idealogue" has to be a card-carrying member of the Nazi party, then no, Gobineau does not qualify. If a "Nazi idealogue" is an idealogue whose work was used by the Nazis, then Gobineau qualifies. Hence the "game playing" accusation.]
"The term,"Nazi" may not have been coined by the mid 1800s, but, Gobineau is most certainly a nazi ideologue in every sense of the word."
I completely disagree. I think that is a foolish use of the term. The Nazis weren't just any old racists or people who held stupid ideas about inequality and the inevitable decline of Western culture. Gobineau had a very important impact on Nazi racial thinking, but it makes no sense at all to say that he was a Nazi himself. I think it is important to keep these distinctions in mind whenever we discuss this historical background.
[These are exactly the type of word games that Staudenmaier uses consistently in his argumentation.]