On Aryans

Tarjei Straume (February 22nd 2003):
"By using the expression "Aryan myth", you seem to indicate that no Aryans have ever existed. You also seem to imply that stating that Aryans have existed, and still exist, is a racist statement."

Peter Staudenmaier (February 22nd, 2004):
I tried to explain this to you at considerable length last month. Maybe I could ask you to read that post again:
http://www.topica.com/lists/waldorf-critics/read/message.html?mid=1715726619
It is indeed the case that "no Aryans have ever existed" if by Aryans you mean a race that founded the civilizations of antiquity. The Aryan myth mixed up language and biology. There was never any such thing as an Aryan race. That's why it's a myth.

Peter Staudenmaier (quoted from the above link):
"Moreover, the concept of an "Aryan race", in the form which it typically took within European culture in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, was inescapably racist. It posited a superior Aryan stock who colonized the ancient world and founded the great civilizations of antiquity."

Tarjei Straume (February 22nd 2003):
Rudolf Steiner did not claim that the Aryans had founded *the great civilizations* of antiquity. There are many, many pre-historic civilizations. It was the Ariosophists and the Nazis who concocted the notion - or the myth (in the derogatory-illusory sense of the word) - that the Aryans had founded *all* ancient civilizations. It looks as if you are deliberately blending occult history based upon spiritual science with the German nationalist idea of a master race in order to stigmatize anthroposophy in this manner.
By Aryans is meant the Indo-European peoples who migrated between Asia and Europe. There have been many civilizations in pre-historical times. They were not founded by one group. RS also talked about the Aryan epoch in the early years when he used traditional theosophical terminology, when he actually meant the fifth post-atlantean epoch. In the spiritual science of seership as practiced by RS a century ago, the relationships of races, epochs, cultures and civilizations were very complex, and a sincere effort to understand what was communicated from those quarters is needed to make sense of it.

Peter Staudenmaier (February 22nd, 2004):
"It was the Ariosophists and the Nazis who concocted the notion - or the myth (in the derogatory-illusory sense of the word) - that the Aryans had founded *all* ancient civilizations."

That is not what List or Lanz, the two leading ariosophists, taught, and I don't know of any Nazi race theorist who made this claim either. The notion that the Aryan race had founded many of the main ancient civilizations long predates both ariosophy and Nazism. I once again recommend you peek inside a book about the history of the Aryan myth. Poliakov would be a good place to start.

"It looks as if you are deliberately blending occult history based upon spiritual science with the German nationalist idea of a master race in order to stigmatize anthroposophy in this manner."

I'm not sure why it looks that way to you. There are a number of studies that address this very issue, from Webb to Strohm to Wegener; perhaps you could find a moment to consult one of them?

"RS also talked about the Aryan epoch in the early years when he used traditional theosophical terminology, when he actually meant the fifth post-atlantean epoch."

No, the fifth post-Atlantean epoch is merely one of seven sub-components of the Aryan era, according to Steiner. The Aryan era is the one that follows the Atlantean era, which in turn followed the Lemurian era. He says we are currently in the fifth epoch of the Aryan era.

"[The fact that the Aryan Race never existed is] Subjective personal opinion on your part."

No, the fact that the Aryan myth was based on a conflation of language and race can easily be verified by anybody who takes a moment to check out the historical literature on the matter. Since you evidently believe that there is or was such a thing as an "Aryan race", Tarjei, could you perhaps explain just which peoples belong or belonged to it?
[Note that he has just switched Myth for Race in the response; he is not addressing what was actually said.]

Tarjei Straume (February 22nd 2003):
I already said that: The Indo-European peoples who migrated between Europe and Asia. You may say that these migrations never took place, that these people didn't exist, or that they were called something else, but that's your personal opinion, not an objective conclusive fact.

Peter Staudenmaier (February 23nd, 2004):
Sorry, Tarjei, this is a very well studied topic. These peoples did not belong to an "Aryan race". I recommend, once again, the fine epilogue on the Aryan myth in J.P. Mallory's 1989 book In Search of the Indo-Europeans.

Tarjei Straume (February 23rd 2003):
"Everything related to pre-history is subject to disputes and divided opinions."

Peter Staudenmaier (February 23nd, 2004):
Indeed. Some opinions are justified, and others are not. The belief in an "Aryan race" is not. Can you point to any contemporary scholarship at all that supports your views on this topic? Do you by any chance believe that there is a "Romance race" or a "Finno-Ugric race"?

Tarjei Straume (February 23rd 2003):
http://www.genealogia.fi/emi/art/article297ce.htm - "The Finns belong to that linguistic if not racial group of languages known as Finno-Ugric, first used by the Finnish ethnologist Mathias A. Castren."